Tim Hortons announced in February it was planning to open 40 new locations in the St. Louis area; the first in early 2015. Tim Hortons STL announced Saturday that the first location is in the works, and it’s in Maplewood.
The Tim Hortons announcement:
The first Tim Hortons location is in the works: Hello Maplewood!
Tim Hortonss STL and the city of Maplewood are in preliminary talks about a Tim Hortons Cafe & Bake Shop location at the southeast corner of Big Bend Boulevard and Manchester Road.
While it’s early in the process, we are very excited about the latest development!
Show Me Hospitality, the Tim Hortons local franchisee, told STL Today it’s in talks with Maplewood officials to build a restaurant at the undeveloped site next to the CVS pharmacy.
But, we were told here by Brian that our local businesses would be fighting Tim Horton’s to the death?
https://40southnews.com/strange-donuts-not-worried-about-tim-hortons/
Strange Donuts doesn’t have much a choice than to reply the way they did, Ian. I mean, what are they going to do, fight it in public, and come off bad like me? Check in with them a year from now, if they still exist. They’re either glib, or fuming and working on a plan,,,hopefully the latter.
Ian, seems they have a plan! http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog/2014/10/strange-donuts-coming-to-central-west-end.html
Wow – I came to this article to clarify that we were talking about the small space next to CVS… and got pulled in by ‘angry man’ comments. I love the charm of our small business district and do my best to support many. But I know there will be one that though peaked my interest when I first read about it…now, not so much. I am sure I will get lambasted for my thought, but it does take all kinds. While I understand completely that the business district pulls in tax dollars – improvements, upkeep, beautification projects, etc.– also pull many of those same tax dollars right back out, at times even costing our residential areas those same upkeeps. All of us, businesses and homeowners alike, pay one of the highest school tax rates in the state, so forgive me as a non-utilizer of the school system when I say I’m good with bringing in tax dollars from whomever would like to pay them, small or large, corporate or independent. Variety and diversity are not bad things. I admire those who give runing a small business a shot, I really do – but don’t try and brow beat people into believing that your sucess or failure is somehow their personal responsibility. If someone would rather run through a drive thru once in a while–knocking them for that choice won’t increase your foot traffic
Babs, while another STL publication for several days, and maybe still does, says Tim Hortons will be next to the Jack in the Box, that’s wrong. It will be on the lot just south of CVS. I know this from the property owner, Dan Lesseg. Thanks for commenting.
I’m still waiting for Brian to come back at scream at me again.
Before this lot was the Shoney’s restaurant and then converted to a Ford dealership, what was at this location?
If I remember a previous Doug Houser post, that was the site of a Lodge of some sort. Big nice brick building.
While I strongly agree about the importance of buying local, my main concern is the traffic situation at the intersection of Big Bend and Manchester. With the new QT, southbound traffic in the late afternoon/early evening is a mess. I have seen so many near miss accidents (vehicle and pedestrian, people crossing Big Bend at all places to get to the QT through heavy traffic), and two actual accidents from people trying to turn into and out of the QT. The current scenario has traffic backing up badly, especially into the turn lane from southbound Big Bend onto east bound Manchester (right by the CVS entrance). What would adding another major business right at the corner do to traffic? It is already pretty bad headed into downtown Maplewood.
I agree with many of the comments here. I do think it’s hard to turn down tax dollars that we aren’t currently getting from a vacant property, however on the flip side of that I do think it could compete too much with local businesses of the same genre. I think one of the things that has made Maplewood unique is the fact that we have so many special local businesses vs. any community that could have big box stores.
One of the things I would love to see is getting more industry into Maplewood, in particular to fill some of the vacant industrial buildings west of city hall on Manchester (near the auto dealership).
Wow, suddenly everyone is a zoning and planning board expert for MPL! Most of you fail to understand the difference in profit margins and cost for any independent business in this town, let alone America. I really don’t give a damn if a landlord is losing rent, let them lower it to bring in a viable, ethical, local business that needs a chance. Instead, a number of you are ready to court a conglomerate that has the capital and lack of ethics that can crush small business on these blocks, after all the city has put into it. “Right to Refuse” in effect,,,they can build it but we don’t have to come. I’m an independent business owner serving communities in a number of ways since yr 2000, and I help build this place 2006-2008, screw Tim Horton’s, they weren’t around then, and screw the landlord ready to do business with them. I hate franchisors, dirty scum. Paintandwine.com
Brian – Local business or not, talking down to your potential client base is not a way to win yourself future customers. Maybe in the future you should rant under a pseudonym and not list the url of your local business. Your tone does not do you any favors. Now when I see your business my first thought won’t be, “interesting new business, I’ll have to check it out!,” but rather, “wasn’t that the guy who was rude to Maplewood residents on 40 South News?”
Jane, I’m not talking down or being rude to anyone, as you claim, but if local business owners and residents hide under pseudonyms (as you seem to suggest) and aren’t outspoken on the matter, then we’ll see another domino effect of small business closings. Strange Donuts, Stone Spiral, Foundation Grounds, Pie Oh My, and all of the other independent owners should march in here and be candid about a huge, Canadian chain setting up and competing with them around the corner. These small businesses have made huge investments in improving the community, their properties; they pay a lot in rent, annual business licensing fees, and a tax for being in the “Special Business District”, they should be able to have some say about things.
Brian, how can you read your posts and not see them as combative? This discussion on here was rather civil and also should have encouraged you, since most people said they were still going to frequent local establishments. But instead you come out guns blazing and implied that people were clueless (re planning and zoning) and worse yet that they lacked ethics (“finally someone with ethics speaks up”). And your post to David in which you try to champion the rights of minimum wage workers? It might work better if independent businesses actually paid their workers substantially more than chains, but many don’t. Like it or not, local businesses have to compete with chains. You should feel heartened that the residents are as loyal as they are to our coffee shops. I am amazed that they all have stayed in business, which speaks to our commitment to drinking and eating local.
Wow, nice backhanded compliment to the local coffee shops, Jane, I’m sure they’ll have extra cash on hand to up wages when their volume is cut by a big box franchise opening around the corner(?). No, local independent businesses don’t have to just sit back and take it from the chains and franchises while paying a good portion of money into the city government and other public services we all enjoy, while creating a unique brand for the community.
Good for “Forty South” giving the heads up on this because the proposed location for the Tim Horton’s franchise is within the confines of the Maplewood “Special Business District”, and there’s been debate for years about “big boxes” being allowed in the sector. We’ll see if SBD members are ready to stand up in solidarity and fight, or not. If not, then we might as well foresee a Starbuck’s at the corner of Manchester and Sutton, and a Panera across from that.
“I am amazed that they all have stayed in business.”
I presume you interpreted this as backhanded? Let me clarify. There are a lot of local coffee shops in Maplewood in a relatively small area. It is truly a testament to the commitment of the community to eating and drinking locally and to the quality of our establishments that they have all managed to thrive and find their individual niche. I’m not sure how that is a veiled insult to anyone.
If you were offended by my comment about wages, well, that’s just economics, right? Local businesses make the argument all the time that they can’t afford to pay more than minimum wage, unlike chains who can perhaps absorb the increases. I didn’t say that to malign any of our local establishments but because I didn’t understand how the minimum wage worker toiling late into the night (which he or she might prefer for family reasons) fit into your overall argument about those “dirty scum” franchises.
@Brian – Was there a large outcry when Great Harvest moved into the strip? That is a national chain with franchisees, with competing coffee and pastries.
I think local business owners have every right to be against a new Tim Horton’s opening in town, just like local residents had every right to be against the QT moving to the corner where it is now. I don’t recall one bit of Chamber of Commerce waffling over opening the QT (purveyor of coffee and pastries), and I don’t imagine you’ll see any over Tim Horton’s either.
I think Jane is right that you are coming off harsh here in tone. Maybe a more straightforward ‘Support Local’ sentiment, instead of using terms like dirty scum and impugning the ethics of residents who might be happy about this new business.
@Ian – I missed the “Great Harvest” arrival, was out of state with work for six years, just got back in July. I caught some of the slight QT hub-bub online, from a distance. So on both businesses and their coming, I really don’t have an opinion, they’re here. Maybe nobody cared, maybe someone did but didn’t know how to stand up to it.
As for my tone, you and Jane are both correctly perceiving my sentiment and delivery, the same way I want a potential franchise or franchisee to see and hear it, I’m not rolling out a “welcome wagon” for Horton’s. I’ve single-handedly fought a franchise in my industry that was out to crush my business, stole a number of my business ideas, and sent “spies” to my location to try to emulate my business model, for four long years in Texas. When I finally drew the line and got adamant with the owners, only then did they stay away, and maybe I should have done that early on to avoid the hassle.
I have zero respect for franchises that come riding in on the backs of independents that built up the brands of these communities, only to undercut the local competition. Yes, there will be competition with chains, but how “special” is a “Special Business District” when its full of franchises and not independent artisans and business owners?
Sorry, but when it comes to dealing with or discussing franchises trying to get into Maplewood’s “Special Business District”, I’m not going to smooth it over, I’d rather nip it in the bud.
My guess is that the same Maplewood Chamber of Commerce that makes the city so hospitable to small businesses like yourself will throw open their arms to welcome Tim Horton’s. Business is business, no?
You’re right that we as consumers can make choices about where to spend our dollars. In the last month I have spent money at both local businesses and national chains here in town. It’s good to have many options and services available.
Yes, Ian, I’m guessing the Chamber is going to be between a rock and a hard place here, as most of its members are independents, a lot of them in the Special Business District where Horton’s wants to set up. The City of Maplewood is also going to be at least slightly up in arms.
Good for your local spending, I had a friend in from Dallas this week and she was ecstatic over our outings to the Schlafly “dock” and Foundation Grounds. I suddenly have a hunger for donuts, “Strange Donuts”, here I come!
I’m all for supporting local business, but I’ve been to Strange a number of times and due to their size, they went pretty much sold out of any options, while that won’t really happen at a Tim Hortons. Don’t get me wrong, I would rather give local shot first, but sometimes size and turnover matters to the customer.
So one national chain decides to open in Maplewood and the world is coming to the end? Let’s not forget that corner was previously two other national chains (Shoney’s years ago and then the Ford dealership more recently). And when Maplewood let CVS plop down on that corner with a horrible design, the lot behind was destined/doomed to be some sort of auto-centric fast food place. I can’t think of a local small business that would work in that spot.
Brian: I think a lot of us appreciate your passionate feeling about small businesses and keeping Maplewood focused on a desirable mix of businesses. But being overzealous and completely blocking national chains from filling some of the large vacancies in the city could do more harm than good.
I personally love supporting local business’ but strange donuts is expensive. I get they are specialty donuts and what not. this will hopefully bring competitive pricing.
Strange Donuts chocolate long john, ftw. $1, so much better than the competitors.
Shhh, don’t tell everyone! I don’t want them to sell out before I get there in the morning :). But seriously, their chocolate frosting is the nectar of the gods.
So did the city of Maplewood just not take into account all of the small businesses in our area that already sell coffee, donuts and baked goods? How does welcoming this franchise support small business?
Emily – The City really won’t have much say in the matter, since the property is owned by the Lessegs and I assume that parcel is zoned for commercial. They should definitely work with any tenant to make sure traffic concerns are met though. Good planning is definitely needed.
Thanks for the info, Ian!
Thank, Ian, then that means consumers make the choice. Consumer should be aware that Tim Horton’s is now owned by Burger King and is a Canadian chain in the first place. Support local business. paintandwine.com
Emily and Ian, there are current restrictions / ordinances as to what type of businesses can be allowed in the “Special Business District” as well as the “CB1” District, and this property is in both. It seems under CB1 they would need a “conditional use permit” as a restaurant, whereas I believe the city recently amended the hearing requirement because there had been no history of ever turning down a restaurant. A change in SBD ordinance, disallowing franchises except those grandfathered in, might be a hope but a longshot. I’ll address this at a meeting on Thursday and see if it’s viable. If it’s not, there are still avenues to pressure the Chamber, city, Horton’s, and “Show Me Hospitality”, the local TH franchisee mentioned in the article.
Awesome, love it. They won’t put Strange and Foundation Grounds out of biz……more demand for Maplewood…….the economic pie is growing in our nabe, it’s all good.
One positive thing about this development is that Maplewood is being talked about. I’ve seen at least four people post articles to my Facebook feed about this – people from all over the St. Louis region. In my mind, this is a net gain, and those of us who are concerned about the long term effects can choose to vote with our dollars and continue to go to our non-chain establishments.
I’ll continue my rotation of Foundation Grounds, Stone Spiral etc, but it’s a good sign that they chose Maplewood as their first spot in the St. Louis market. Also, Tim Horton’s are open 24/7 while the others are not which is a big help to those of us who work non-standard hours.
Plus it wouldn’t hurt to get a few more chains (either regional or national) to fill in some of the large vacancies in Maplewood like the Monarch and Blind Tiger spaces as well as those two problem slots next to Shop-n-Save.
Good point, David, about the hours of Tim Horton’s. And at least until the others locations open, the novelty of a new chain will draw new people to our city who will hopefully shop downtown. I don’t see a problem with this other than my concern that it would siphon business from the other coffee shops. Let’s face it, that lot was going to be a chain of some sorts. Better it is a chain with buzz surrounding it then another Starbucks or Taco Bell or [insert ubiquitous chain].
David, yeah, because the landlords need the rent, eh? Or the commuters are tired of staring at empty spaces, or because you need donuts at 3am from a minimum wage worker so an independent store needs to worry about schmucking out some kid the same way and taking no vacation? Why don’t you rent the place out and do the same? Oh, because you like to sleep? Tim Horton’s can go open in Maplewood commons, along with Walmart and Lowe’s, that’s where they belong.
I know you’re angry: but could you not resort to personal attacks? Can we have a civil discussion without resorting to hyperbole?
Southeast corner is where the Shell station is. Plenty of space. Right across the street from the new QT.
Shell is on the southwest corner.
This is one of those foreign-merger-to avoid-US-taxes arrangements. Burger King will move its corporate headquarters to Canada. They will have all the advantages of doing business in the US (and in Maplewood) without paying corporate taxes in the US. Boycott Burger King and refuse to allow this donut place in Maplewood!
Patricia, BK will still have to pay taxes in the US for their US stores sales, just not taxes on international sales. I am not an accountant. but that’s what CNBC reported when the merger deal was announced.
My understanding is that the IRS will collect millions or billions less from BK in corporate income taxes as a result of this international merger, even though the company earns the same as before. This will translate to huge profits for BK at the expense of the US treasury. Our national debt will be increased.
BK is not the only company engaging in exploiting this tax loophole.
I have no problems with companies following the letter of the law to increase profits. Politicians have made the tax system so convoluted that unintended consequences are the rule, rather than the exception. Then when companies follow the laws they have written the politicians cry.
I prefer to put the blame where it belongs. Additionally, I will continue to consider tax implications of all my large expenses, whether it’s 401k contributions, mortgages, or anything else that may come up in the future; as I’m quite sure many of the people who complain about this practice also do.
Thanks Patricia, finally someone with some ethics speaks up. It’s on the citizens, right to open, right to refuse, go away TH.
Tim Horton’s is a Canadian institution but Strange, Tea Room, and Pie Oh My are all on the same block. Are you kidding me? The street frontage of that parcel is miniscule. Only low volume retail could work there unless they can share the entrance space with CVS.
There is the old QT just South of there that would make a far better location. Plenty of frontage along Big Bend and a controlled intersection for traffic control.
Newer Tim’s are narrow and deep which is why the lot “behind” CVS works for them.
Let’s just say I have my reservations and will need to see the proposed design to make up my mind either way.
A narrow footprint may work for them from a perspective of if the store will physically fit onto the site but does it work for the neighborhood and traffic? That intersection is already problematic at morning rush hour so I’m really interested in seeing details to see if it is well tought out.
Wouldn’t the southeast corner be where the new CVS is? Or would this be going in where the gas station across from QT is?
Isn’t Tim Hortons owned by Burger King now? Are we really supposed to be excited about some massive faux-Canadian chain moving into town?
Hopefully there’s enough donut and coffee dollars to go around….I would hate to lose any of our preexisting bakery/coffee/donut options.
Agree with Jane, Michelle, and Patricia above. Not a positive development — except for the Canadian Burger King Corporation and the two teenagers that will be hired to run the place.
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